Today I am really excited to have Caleb Ozio, the creator of Livewire, Alpine.js, and Sushi to name a few. This should be a good one, Caleb. The clock starts now. If Livewire didn't exist today, what development stack would you be using to build apps? Oh, I mean, if I, I mean probably, I don't know, like React or something is the default, but I, I'd like to think that I would still be doing Vanilla Blade and abusing like all of the web

that I would still be doing Vanilla Blade and abusing like all of the web to do the things I want to do. I don't know. Sounds great. Yeah. emoji prefix or .livewire php extension in your personal projects. Uh, well .livewire php. I don't, I don't think that made it on stage because I don't think I'm doing that one for a handful of reasons, but it's emoji all day.

because I don't think I'm doing that one for a handful of reasons, but it's emoji all day. Yeah, right. Come on. You wanna be right or do you wanna be cool? Uh, another thing you said at U Lark on us talk, and I quote, I don't hate multiple files, I love co-location. This is Caleb's single responsibility principle. What other aspects of your life do you apply this principle to?

What other aspects of your life do you apply this principle to? I just think mentally in my actual life, I'm really scattered like a DHD to stuff everywhere, you know, but, but it does cause me pain and, and so in my mental life and anything, it's like I really, I have to know where to look and I can only look at that one thing. I'm like really tunnel vision and nearsighted. So when things are in different places

I'm like really tunnel vision and nearsighted. So when things are in different places and then I have to return to 'em, it causes me a ton of pain. And so I'm always just like, whatever this concept is, can we put it in one place and like put it in a bunker? You know? Then I can immerse myself when I need to and when I don't, I can treat it as a black box mentally. Yeah. A key aspect of open source is

as a black box mentally. Yeah. A key aspect of open source is fostering a great community. Talk to me about the, your desire to hang out in real life with the wildlife event in Buffalo. Yeah, so in my head, I have this project that I love and am passionate about and a lot of people from all over the world are passionate about it. And I'm in this community talking to friends like you,

world are passionate about it. And I'm in this community talking to friends like you, and it's this big beautiful society. And then when you unplug or if you look at me from the outside, I'm just a guy in an attic typing all the time. And there's something, there's just this disconnect. And so this, in one way, this is like connecting that like people are gonna enter my actual life. I really believe like way more than I've ever believed

that like people are gonna enter my actual life. I really believe like way more than I've ever believed that conferences are like the most important thing for a community, for like a tech ecosystem. And I just haven't even tapped into that with Livewire. So I'm stoked to start it and create a little beating heart that people can kind of gather around and they can feel belonging and they can launch something and have a stage and, and have a community.

and they can launch something and have a stage and, and have a community. Yeah. So I'm excited. I love that This thrilling episode of Running Clock is proudly brought to you by Lara Cast. Yes sir. Yes ma'am. It's the Root Tuus Laraval Screencast. This side of the Information highway. And back to the show. How much time do you spend deconstructing existing packages and libraries to learn how they work?

How much time do you spend deconstructing existing packages and libraries to learn how they work? No, almost none. Uh, yeah, I don't know. Very occasionally I'll be like, oh, how did this thing, you know, solve some weird scroll thing in Safari 16, but I used to do a lot of source diving. I don't, I don't, I mean, I, I source dive Laravel constantly, but no, I mostly like work off the dome and just like Chachi PT things I

but no, I mostly like work off the dome and just like Chachi PT things I need and whatever, you know? Yeah. Alright. We got one minute 45 left. Uh, you recently talked on your podcast about the concept of precedent, uh, and I really like what you said. Can you tell the audience what you mean by that? Yeah, this one I've been thinking about a ton. It's like we have to make decisions a lot about like a change.

It's like we have to make decisions a lot about like a change. So there's a new feature or something, or a problem to solve. And so the first thing I always do is like, how do we not add anything so that it's invisible to the user? Can we solve this without adding anything? But when we have to add something, there's, you know, it's a blank canvas, unlimited possibilities, creativity,

But when we have to add something, there's, you know, it's a blank canvas, unlimited possibilities, creativity, benefits from constraints and precedent is a great constraint. It's like, how do we just use something that you are already familiar with, like what's a term from something you already use or in our own package that we can go, oh, this new thing, you just use this word or you use this method or this technique and people have something to map it to.

you just use this word or you use this method or this technique and people have something to map it to. And then as a creator, you're not inventing something new that you're beholden to, that you regret a year later because you made it on a whim. It's like, no, if I can take other people's decisions that we all agree is the right thing, we have less in our minds and we can just focus. Yep. Ah, excellent. We all gonna be out of jobs anyway. Let's have fun on our way out.

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and do the vibe thing is when, unless it's like a prototype or something that doesn't need to be maintained ever, it, you end up regretting it. And so, so far I have not seen it take away the need for me to use my brain. So I'm still employed. We're still employed, but I don't know, they're so good. I don't know. So I, I said it but I actually don't believe it. Look, looks like we're out of time.

I said it but I actually don't believe it. Look, looks like we're out of time. I would love to speak longer, but we are five minutes done. Thank you so much, Caleb. You've done amazing. I absolutely, thank you Simon. Five minutes. I mean, that's the hardest thing in the world for me is to like, shut up, you know? You got, yeah.